Parasite.

Lets talk air to air combat...

First up is Beesley.  Probably the most frustrated man in America when it comes to the F-35 and the 'points' that critics attempt to make about its air to air combat prowess.





Next up Spudman WP...

Sensors and VLO are two sides of the same coin, the ability to be the first to see the other guy.

High altitude and supercruise are not features unique to "pure A2A" fighters. For example the F-35 can go above 50k and both Euro-cards claim super-cruise above M1.2 in A2A config.

While the F-22 has a kinematic advantage over current fighter/weapon configs, that will soon be changing as newer weapons are introduced at a faster rate than the F-22 can compensate (without changing it s own weapons).

I do not want you to forget 60 years of fighter combat history; I want you to learn from it. The in the 1st combat jets, maneuverability was absolute as you needed to get your target into a very small cone in order for your cannons to hit. Later, the need for absolute maneuverability was relaxed due to the cone becoming larger due to the introduction of AAMs. That cone expanded up to 180 degrees with the latest HOBS missiles like AIM-9x, ASRAAM, etc. Throughout these changes the need for absolute maneuverability was relaxed as the sensors & weapons became better (ie the latest F-16C Blk50 is not as maneuverable as the first F-16A).

The F-35 is just the next evolution in this process. It gives up nothing to previous generations, but gains much in terms of combat persistence, situational awareness and weapons capability. Maneuverability is still important due to the need (in a WVR fight) to keep from being in front of the enemy (and taking an AAM up the arse), but you only need to keep that up for a few seconds till your AAM hits.

As an example of how sensor & weapons upgrades will counter fighter generations at a faster pace, look at weapon integration. UAI allows new weapons to be used, fleet wide, with a few months of being developed. Far example; when ATK is done working on the AIM-120D+ s new motor and they complete whatever other changes they create as part of it s IOC capabilities, it can be shipped to any F-35, F-15E, and F-16 within 3 months of testing being done. No block upgrade needed. The same will be true of NGM, MALD, NGJ, etc.

Last but not least SMSGT Mac (Elements of Power Blogger)...

A couple of/three points if I may,

1. BB1984 and Privateer:
Please read carefully and try to grasp my point as I typed it without overlaying emotion. I indicated that that increasing maneuverability does not bring much military advantage. I believe my use of a form of the verb 'increase' without any modifiers such as 'in relation to' or 'compared to x', to most people, would have immediately indicated that I was speaking in relation to current state. That should have in no way, shape, or form, indicated to any reasonable person implied anything other than what I typed. If you would like an aeronautical and operational explanation as to why what I typed was true, just ask. But don't twist other's words just to create an opening for making cr*p up.

2. I've noticed the question as to which version of the F-18 the F-35B maneuverability is being compared. Does it matter? The F-35B is replacing the Harrier, not the F-18. What kind of maneuverability does the AV-8 have at Mach 1+? Oh....(yeah).

3. A data point for the ‘hobbyists’:
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The F-15 was larger and more visible than its predecessor the F-4, wrote Sprey, making it vulnerable in daylight close-in dogfighting. He claimed the Eagle was too dependent on radar guided missiles, which “are not likely to be more effective than those used in Vietnam.”
Since 1960, Sprey wrote in the 1981 piece, too much of the Air Force tactitcal aviation budget had been devoted to complex night/all-weather systems “of highly questionable capability.” Sprey urged the Air Force to emphasize the F-16 over the F-15 because “in visual combat, the F-16 has been demonstrated to be the superior aircraft.”
This was the point where the military reformers misfired.
Future air combat would not, as they assumed, take place largely in daytime, close-in engagements. The F-15 would go on to become the dominant air-to-air force in the skies precisely because of its radar missiles and long reach.
In the first Gulf War, the F-15 accounted for 36 of 40 Air Force aerial victories. Of those, 28 involved radar guided missiles. Worldwide, the Eagle has racked up an unprecedented kill ratio of 104-to-zero.
Writing in 2004, David R. Mets of Air University summed it up this way:
“The Korea-style dogfight seems to have all but disappeared from the air-to-air battle. The agility of both [the F-15 and F-16] remains highly useful in dodging surface-to-air missiles, but that is not what Boyd and the [military reform] acolytes had in mind.”
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ref: http://www.airforce-magazine.com/MagazineArchive/Pages/2010/August%202010/0810failures.aspx

Just a data point.

Suffice it to say that in my mind this debate is dead.  The F-35 will be a potent air to air platform and the critics are clutching at straws and depending on Korean War type solutions (invalid tactics) to solve modern combat problems.

Pic of the day. May 18, 2011. Eurocopter Tigre.

US Marines/Canadians perform joint recovery of downed CH-47.

KANDAHAR PROVINCE, Afghanistan-A Marine Heavy Helicopter Squadron 461 CH-53E Super Stallion lands next to a downed Canadian Forces CH-47 Chinook during a tactical recovery of aircraft and personnel mission in Kandahar Province, Afghanistan, May 17. Utilizing a trio CH-53E Super Stallion helicopters from Marine Heavy Helicopter Squadron 461, with assistance from 2nd Marine Logistics Group’s helicopter support team, the Canadian and American team was able to transport the injured aircraft back to its home at Kandahar Airfield, Afghanistan., Cpl. Rashaun X. James, 5/17/2011 1:22 AM

KANDAHAR PROVINCE, Afghanistan-Helicopter support team Marines with 2nd Marine Logistics Group prepare the rigging for a transport of a Canadian Forces CH-47 Chinook helicopter during a tactical recovery of aircraft and personnel mission in Kandahar Province, Afghanistan, May 17. The Marines and Canadian Forces were able to transport the injured aircraft back home safely to Kandahar Airfield, Afghanistan., Cpl. Rashaun X. James, 5/17/2011 1:12 AM

KANDAHAR PROVINCE, Afghanistan-A Marine Heavy Helicopter Squadron 461 CH-53E Super Stallion transports a Canadian Forces CH-47 Chinook during a tactical recovery of aircraft and personnel mission in Kandahar Province, Afghanistan, May 17. Utilizing a trio CH-53E Super Stallion helicopters from Marine Heavy Helicopter Squadron 461, with assistance from 2nd Marine Logistics Group’s helicopter support team, the Canadian and American team was able to transport the injured aircraft back to its home at Kandahar Airfield, Afghanistan., Sgt. Thomas W. Dowd, 5/17/2011 2:42 AM

David's after a stealth Chinook now!

Interesting read....

Since the officials confirmed that 3 Chinooks were involved and given that a mixed formation of stealth and non-stealth helos would have rendered the entire formation clearly visible on radars and audible from distance, I believe that there must be also a modified MH-47 flying with the 160 SOAR. Unlike the Black Hawk, we have no photographic evidences of it, but I think that their existence is somehow confirmed by the fact that the officers admitted their presence on the scene. Furthermore, it is quite obvious that the sources are trying to deceive the public opinion when they say to the AP journalist that:

Read it all here.  I don't quite buy it but ...

CSI's Mountain Lion.

Thanks Jonathan for sending me this!  Much appreciated.  

Looks like CSI is trying to step up there game.  A few month ago when I wrote asking for specifications on the "Mountain Lion" they were quite closed lipped.  Polite, but politely refusing to give me any info.  Now they have out front for the whole world to see.  Refreshing if a little late.

NOTE:

Looks like this product has undergone a few design changes since the last time I saw pics of it.  Probably just cosmetic but changes never the less.  I'll try and find the pics.

ML

Special Forces Descend on Camp Atterbury

All photos by Staff Sgt D. Bruce.

Soldiers with 2nd Battalion, 19th Special Forces Group descend to earth after jumping out of a CH-47 Chinook helicopter at Camp Atterbury Joint Maneuver Training Center, Ind., May 9. The airborne operation is just one of many tasks the 2nd-19th SFG must perform to maintain their credentials and accreditation.

A soldier with 2nd Battalion, 19th Special Forces Group descends to earth after jumping out of a CH-47 Chinook helicopter at Camp Atterbury Joint Maneuver Training Center, Ind., May 9. The airborne operation is just one of many tasks the 2nd-19th SFG must perform to maintain their credentials and accreditation.

Soldiers with 2nd Battalion, 19th Special Forces Group provide security along likely avenues of approach the rest of their team can cross a trail during a foot patrol while training at Camp Atterbury Joint Maneuver Training Center, Ind., May 12. The 2nd-19th SFG were recently at Camp Atterbury for a week-long drill period.

A soldier with 2nd Battalion, 19th Special Forces Group covers the rearguard as his team moves out after a break during a foot patrol while training at Camp Atterbury Joint Maneuver Training Center, Ind., May 12. The foot patrol, while a basic infantry task, is just one of several tasks these highly trained Soldiers have to maintain in addition to advanced skills, often traveling through the most inhospitable route possible.

A soldier with 2nd Battalion, 19th Special Forces Group provides security for his team during a foot patrol while training at Camp Atterbury Joint Maneuver Training Center, Ind., May 12. The foot patrol, while a basic infantry task, is just one of several tasks these highly trained soldiers have to maintain in addition to advanced skills, often traveling through the most inhospitable route possible.