Check out this bombshell that Sweetman dropped on the USAF's premier fighter...
Without being persnickety, F-22 has delivered 40-some training and test aircraft, 60 sorta-combat-capable jets, and 80-some that have the new radar that should enable the aircraft do some of what was hoped for in the early 2000s - after more billions have been spent. Wastefully or otherwise.Wow.
Let's break that down a bit.
40 training and test aircraft.
60 sorta combat capable jets.
80 that have new radar that SHOULD enable to do some of what was hoped for in the early 2000's.
A simple statement but so loaded. The F-22 is touted by some to be the ultimate fighter but from a super Air Force advocate like Sweetman we just had this dropped on our plate.
Interesting. But wait there is more. Does this explain the push to cancel the airplane? Does this explain the need to get the F-35 into service? Is this why the USAF is so comfortable in simply adding new AESA radars to the F-15 and F-16? Is the drop off between the performance of a F-15 with 4 AIM-120 missiles loaded conformally and the F-22 carrying the same load internally that different? I would say probably not.
This whole F-22, F-35, Typhoon, Rafale, Gripen and F-18/15/16 is starting to make so much sense.
More to come I'm sure.
Update:
Read this story from Flight Global regarding the F-22 upgrade path...or lack thereof.
Under the common configuration plan, the combat-coded F-22 fleet is separated into groups of 63 Block 30 and 87 Block 35 aircraft.Wow.
The Block 30s are being upgraded with Increment 3.1 capabilities, which include air-to-ground and electronic attack modes for the Northrop Grumman APG-77 radar.
Meanwhile, the Block 35s will also be modernised with the USAF's most advanced air-to-air weapons - the Raytheon AIM-120D AMRAAM and AIM-9X Sidewinder. The package, named Increment 3.2, also adds an automatic ground collision avoidance system and the multifunction advanced datalink. The latter will allow the F-22 to transmit data to other stealth aircraft.
USAF officials are now debating whether to upgrade the 63 Block 30 aircraft to the Block 35 standard. If the proposal is accepted, the USAF would operate a fleet of 150 F-22s with identical capabilities.
But the Raptor fleet would still lack a number of features common to most modern fighters, including an infrared search and track sensor for passive targeting and a helmet-mounted cueing system to shoot at targets beyond the field of view of the fighter's air-to-air missiles.
It is possible, however, that the USAF will add new capabilities to the F-22 beyond the Increment 3.2 upgrades. One example is a distributed aperture system now installed on the Lockheed Martin F-35, which provides 360° optical coverage around the aircraft.
Update 1:
"Me" is debating me on the merits of the F-22 vs. the F-15. Let me put this puppy to sleep. Service ceiling of the F-15---65,000 ft.
Service ceiling of the F-22---65,000 ft.
Max Speed of the F-15------Mach 2.5+
Max Speed of the F-22------Mach 2.2
The Mig-25 and its replacement Mig-31 can supposedly get up to 67,500 ft and top out at Mach 2.8...faster than a F-22 and since we don't know what the + equals on the F-15 how about we give those airplanes a tie?
"Nuff said.
so this kind of surprised me, i was like, we need 40 jets to train people to fly at most 140 combat jets (i am being generous in including the 60 kinda sorta maybe capable jets). ummmm....isnt this a bit high? cant we train enough pilots on 20 trainers? do we need that many?
ReplyDeletewait till you read the upgrade. the F-22 story is not a good one.
ReplyDeletewell it looks pretty cool in airshows, maybe that will distract people while the F35 is actually fighting wars.
ReplyDeleteThere are other issues with the F-22 including the difficulty upgrading it. It's still the the best air superiority fighter in the world and brings specific capabilities unmatched by any other aircraft, including the F-35.
ReplyDeleteThere are many things unique to the F-35 that are worth getting excited about but sometimes it's as if the systems are somehow unique and won't show up on other aircraft anytime soon the way some talk about it.
The difference between an F-15 and F-22 firing BVR is actually off the charts. Firstly the F-22 firing the same missiles does so from higher altitude and higher speed (high super cruise) imparting far more energy to the missiles and does so at a time and place of their choosing because you are never aware the F-22 is there.
i'll grant none of that. everyone adds thrust before they fire if possible...so if its a BVR fight then an F-15 pilot will try to go supersonic too.
ReplyDeleteeveryone talks about the height at which the F-22 flies but whos to say that the F-35 can't meet it? we don't know and I do know that the F-15 has set several time to height records.
being cleared to operate at a given altitude and operating at a given altitude are two different things.
The records the F-15 set were done by a stripped down, to the point of having no paint, version called the "Streak Eagle". They also flew from Minot AFB, ND in the winter when the air was thinner so it could go just a touch faster.
ReplyDeleteIts been suggested that the F-15 and F-22 would make good team mates once the datalinks are compatible. The F-15's AESA radar has a wider field of view so it would act as a mini-AWACS while the F-22 stays quiet and zooms in to fire the AIM-120's.
Bet you could do the same with the F-35 spotting for the F-16/18's and taking out some of the SAM's so the the older planes can have 'quiet time'.
ok, but how do you account for Israeli F-15's intercepting Mig-25's that attempted overflights of that country. the Mig-25 has a service ceiling listed at 80,000 feet but they were able to get up there with missiles and do the deed. heck even F-4's have attempted to do battle with Mig-25's and they're unofficially able to do only 60,000 feet.
ReplyDeletei would bet that all our aircraft current and projected can get as high as the F-22...and after the bubbling that was found on the F-35 after its high speed flights i would bet they're keeping secret that the F-22's stealth paint is degraded after such high speedflights.
that would explain its rather high maintenance costs.
According to the literature, the recon types could get up there but the standards were stuck in the 60K's. The engines were red lined at mach 2.8 because, and I love this, any higher the engines went out of control and would try and suck the fuel pumps through the lines.
ReplyDeleteIt seems the IDF laid in traps for the MIG-25 to come over and then did zoom climb to loft a Sparrow higher then it should go.
LOL! That's not a bombshell, that's typical Sweetman Snark. He should know full well the ratio of early blocks to later blocks is skewed higher due to the manufacturing plan getting whacked in the out-years.
ReplyDeleteAs to the importance of the IRST 'capability' I don't think Sweetman has a clue as to its limited utility in most applications as a standalone system. With off-boresight engagement capability, the comparatively soda-straw look angle of the IRST is even less useful than in the past.
F-15 vs F-22? I defer to the elite meat servos on that one:
"I can't see the [expletive deleted] thing," said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, exchange F-15 pilot in the 65th Aggressor Squadron. "It won't let me put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it visually through the canopy. [Flying against the F-22] annoys the hell out of me."
(http://www.acc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123041831)
my only point with this whole post and the issue with Sweetman is two fold.
ReplyDelete1. the F-22 needs to get a fully funded upgrade path. TODAY.
2. everyone touts its kinematics. but by that comparison its not that big a beast.
but i will read the link. oh and nice deer by the way. how much did he weigh dressed?
There are many anecdotal accounts of four or five on one engagements where the entire flight of F-15s died without ever seeing the Raptor.
ReplyDeleteThe current sad state of the F-22 program is directly related to the decision to cap the production run so low. Had we built 300+, funds would have been available to fully realize its potential. Instead, they turned it into another "silver bullet" system.
Also, just talking pure kinematics, I believe I read somewhere that the F-22 can match almost the entire F-15 performance envelope on military power alone.
Agree with you on number 1 and there is a plan to do so. Deciding on what, how and when to do so is part of the recent plus-up to the F-22 sustainment contract that was a 'non-story' story for a while: (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/usaf-extends-f-22-sustainment-contract-346582/)
ReplyDeleteOn number 2, the missing factor in the discussion so far is 'time'. (Outside of the F-15 topping out at a slightly higher speed 'clean' than an F-22 'loaded' - an F-15 'clean' is just another commuter jet). The F-22 will out-accelerate from cruise to max dash speed, climb faster for longer, cruise faster for longer than anything 'operational' in the sky. With low-drag internal carriage, it can carry the smash longer through a turn than a dirty-external loaded platform and not slow down at all with smaller heading changes. It dominates where it needs to. I believe LM and the USG will bring a lot of the F-35 systems tech to the F-22. (In many ways,the F-22 systems are a 1st Gen of the F-35 integrated avionics systems.)
RE Deer: Thanks! I dropped him off at the processors without weighing him first, so I'll find out what he weighed when I pick the meat up. Looks like I have family bragging rights this year though!
I scarcely know where to begin. In short, compared to the F-22, the F-15 is dogmeat, and old dogmeat at that.
ReplyDelete"Service ceiling of the F-15---65,000 ft.
Service ceiling of the F-22---65,000 ft.
This is misleading. At 65,000 an F-15 will be doing good just to hang there (with minimal payload and in afterburner) while the F-22 is designed to actually fight and manuever supersonically there.
Max Speed of the F-15------Mach 2.5+
Max Speed of the F-22------Mach 2.2
Max speed *clean* for an F-15 while chief test pilot Paul Metz has said of the F-22's maximum speed, "It's fast. I mean it's REALLY fast. The top speed is classified but it'll do 1600 mph." Put a payload on the F-15 and it'll be doing good to GET to mach 2 in afterburner, let alone do anything meaningful with it.
The Mig-25 and its replacement Mig-31 can supposedly get up to 67,500 ft and top out at Mach 2.8...faster than a F-22 and since we don't know what the + equals on the F-15 how about we give those airplanes a tie?"
How about, "because that would be incorrect"? There are so many variables involved that a blanket "tie" is ludicrous. An F-16 brought down a Mig-25 (Hell, if that Predator had been packing an AIM-9X instead of Stinger, or Hellfire or whatever the hell it was they tried to shoot at that Foxbat even the Predator might have brought one down.) I don't mean to sound harsh Solomon, and I really admire your tenacity when defending the F-35, but good as the F-15 is it is far, FAR outclassed by the F-22.