I wouldnt dare to call it stealth until we actually get to see production models - at the moment , based on 2014 photos, the poor thing is badly compromised.
The two things that determine stealth characteristics, especially the latter one.
I think Russians went for supermaneuverability (lol) over stealth and RCS reduction. Also as some have pointed out, twin seater mostly because the lack of proper sensor fusion.
Too soon to really theorize, need to see production line models.
too soon to tell my ass. the Russians are putting into place a low observable fighter that will fly faster, higher and be as hard to detect from the front as the F-35 ... additionally it'll fly with a bigger radar, carry missiles that are faster, longer ranged and biased toward IR and it'll all be cheaper and easier to upgrade.
we're building a new fighter that is in essence behind the best that the Russians are putting into service.
and you wonder why the Pentagon is already talking about a 6th gen fighter???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
Your ''hard to detect'' has no merit - juding from what we definitely know at the moment, shit inlet and engine nozzle management still exists. Its in no way or shape has RCS of F-35, nevermind F-22.
Their sensors are also poor, thats why they are going with L-band radars on the sides - they wont be able to ''think'' like F-35s.
''A senior U.S. industry official agreed with Deptula’s assessment. In terms of its avionics, the PAK-FA is closer to a Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet or F-16E/F Block 60 than an F-22 or F-35. “Some may claim that the PAK-FA is a 5th gen. fighter, but it's more of a 4.5 gen. fighter by U.S. standards,” the industry official said.
In fact, the PAK-FA’s lack of true sensor fusion and comprehensive data links that are on par with its American counterparts may prove to be its Achilles’ heel. U.S. strategists are moving towards an approach where every aircraft or surface ship can act as a sensor for any aircraft, ship or vehicle that carries a weapon. The launch aircraft might not even guide the weapon once it has been fired. The U.S. Navy is already implementing a construct called the Naval Integrated Fire Control-Counter Air (NIFC-CA) that would do just that. The Air Force, too, is working on something similar.
“In the future—while aerodynamic performance will continue to be important—speed, range and payload to a greater degree than maneuverability. Even more important will be the ability to ubiquitously share knowledge to the point that we have faster decision advantage than any adversary,” Deptula said. “This is the notion of the ‘combat cloud.’ It’s more about how we integrate the sensor-shooters that are resident in systems coming online, more than it is about new platforms.”''
You do realize, it`d be weird if Pentagon wasnt talking about 6th gen aircraft, right?
ATF which later evolved in to F-22 was started in June 1981. For comparison, F-15 IOC was 1976.
Thats right, wrap your head around that.
It`ll be 2030 until first prototypes start their tests, nevermind actual IOC - as aircraft will become more and more complex, the date between announcement of research and IOC will be widening.
Eldarr just stop... Better people than you have modeled the RCS of this plane and concluded it is very stealthy, unlike the F35 which only has low frontal rcs and only on US versions. Furthermore it carries a much better weapons payload, is dual engine, supercruises, is more manouverable, and has a larger area for radar which has a very significant long-term implication. Not to mention that russian radar will probably catch-up to US at somepoint anyway...
''A senior U.S. industry official agreed with Deptula’s assessment. In terms of its avionics, the PAK-FA is closer to a Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet or F-16E/F Block 60 than an F-22 or F-35. “Some may claim that the PAK-FA is a 5th gen. fighter, but it's more of a 4.5 gen. fighter by U.S. standards,” the industry official said.''
We just read that F-18 E/F and upgraded F-16 and 15 already use sensors that are better than what F35 has. Forget F22 ,F22 didn't receive funding to upgrade the electronica and software so its at the state it was a decade ago
About sensor fusion we only know from F35 as the advantage LM is marketing hardest as Stealth is begining to get old, we do not know what T50 will have in that respect.
Do you know how a BVR engagment is done against a potent threat , launch a missile head on with high enough energy then break and follow that engagment at 90° (presenting the hard target for a missle while maintaing stand off range) that is why you now have radars on the sides and movable aesa hads in development
It doesnt even have saw-toothed edges, even Chinese have thought of that for fucks sakes.
Thats just the surface of it.
Dual engine because the current ones blow,they really blow and Izdeliye is at least 4-5 years away. Besides, the complaint of single-engine is old and doesnt hold any merit,considering how other aircraft such as Gripen do just fine without the second twin in the frame.
Maneuverability , the kind PAK-FA will posses is almost like a third teat - nice to have one, for shits and giggles. Useless in action.
Their radars, historically have been very poor as have their sensors been - this is a fact, every single person who has flown Mig-29 and other Soviet built aircraft have said that.
Sorry folks, Russia is a ghost of its former past, it cant compete with US on a level field anymore. They make good rockets,engines and subs. Rest - they blow.
And yes I`ll rather quote Deptula than ever quote you - the guy who believes that 6th gen aircraft development signals F-35 death spiral...whats it, 546th time youve been chanting that mantra at this point?
Israelians that testedd last URSS mig 29 models don't agree with that : they found it dangerous for their enemies ! I like people that have, I assume, no real intel on the aircraft classified parts that are avionnics and internal sensor fusion and are currently saying that it sucks ! It's too early and inthat domain there is too much Fan service, and too much "bullshit speech because i work for concurrent firms".
Elderer it is certainly vastly better than your speculation as it attempts to mathematically model the effects of radar emissions on such a plane and whilst there is of-course naturally a degree of inacuracy due to the exclusion of classified information pertaining to the materials that comprise the SU50 it nevertheless serves as a good approximation of stealth characteristics.
And as I have strongly implied, it is vastly superior to whatever any of our feelings are regarding these planes. Your attacks on the plane are completely eroneous, it is a very good plane, it has alot of desirable characteristics for a fighter-plane, it has a high 'cruising-speed', it has exceptional manoeuvrability, it has very good stealth characteristics, it is capable of carrying a very flexible array of weaponry internally and externally & it is fairly price competitive.
Furthermore apart from cost and logistics issues, dual engine is very much a desirable thing, particularly in a high-performance fighter, in this case your sugestion that such a very large fighter plane should only have one engine, is a completely proposterous and unrealistic idea.
Fans are already drawing up the 2 seater http://th06.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2014/091/b/d/sukhoi_hal_fgfa_by_bbb4445-d7cp0wb.jpg
Both side by side and tandem versions http://www.militaryparitet.com/editor/assets/new/01/20100215163408.png http://www.militaryparitet.com/editor/assets/new/01/20100215163408.jpg
Does anyone know how valid this projection is, is it tentative or drwan in ink? Thats alot planes India is picking up. good for them. But South Korea? I thought they were already buying super F15s, at quite the pretty penny too. huh. On a funny note, north korea aint getting squat.
I wouldnt dare to call it stealth until we actually get to see production models - at the moment , based on 2014 photos, the poor thing is badly compromised.
ReplyDeletePoor inlet management.
Shit engine nozzle management.
The two things that determine stealth characteristics, especially the latter one.
I think Russians went for supermaneuverability (lol) over stealth and RCS reduction.
Also as some have pointed out, twin seater mostly because the lack of proper sensor fusion.
Too soon to really theorize, need to see production line models.
What defines stealth ,how much RCS and from what angle.
DeleteIts many things but first of all is shape,shape,shape,shape,shape,shape and only then RAM.
DeleteThere is a real reason why everyone is so fixated in the engine nozzles and inlets - too soon to tell really.
too soon to tell my ass. the Russians are putting into place a low observable fighter that will fly faster, higher and be as hard to detect from the front as the F-35 ... additionally it'll fly with a bigger radar, carry missiles that are faster, longer ranged and biased toward IR and it'll all be cheaper and easier to upgrade.
Deletewe're building a new fighter that is in essence behind the best that the Russians are putting into service.
and you wonder why the Pentagon is already talking about a 6th gen fighter???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
....
DeleteYour ''hard to detect'' has no merit - juding from what we definitely know at the moment, shit inlet and engine nozzle management still exists.
Its in no way or shape has RCS of F-35, nevermind F-22.
Their sensors are also poor, thats why they are going with L-band radars on the sides - they wont be able to ''think'' like F-35s.
''A senior U.S. industry official agreed with Deptula’s assessment. In terms of its avionics, the PAK-FA is closer to a Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet or F-16E/F Block 60 than an F-22 or F-35. “Some may claim that the PAK-FA is a 5th gen. fighter, but it's more of a 4.5 gen. fighter by U.S. standards,” the industry official said.
In fact, the PAK-FA’s lack of true sensor fusion and comprehensive data links that are on par with its American counterparts may prove to be its Achilles’ heel. U.S. strategists are moving towards an approach where every aircraft or surface ship can act as a sensor for any aircraft, ship or vehicle that carries a weapon. The launch aircraft might not even guide the weapon once it has been fired. The U.S. Navy is already implementing a construct called the Naval Integrated Fire Control-Counter Air (NIFC-CA) that would do just that. The Air Force, too, is working on something similar.
“In the future—while aerodynamic performance will continue to be important—speed, range and payload to a greater degree than maneuverability. Even more important will be the ability to ubiquitously share knowledge to the point that we have faster decision advantage than any adversary,” Deptula said. “This is the notion of the ‘combat cloud.’ It’s more about how we integrate the sensor-shooters that are resident in systems coming online, more than it is about new platforms.”''
http://nationalinterest.org/feature/the-russian-air-forces-super-weapon-beware-the-pak-fa-11742
You do realize, it`d be weird if Pentagon wasnt talking about 6th gen aircraft, right?
ATF which later evolved in to F-22 was started in June 1981.
For comparison, F-15 IOC was 1976.
Thats right, wrap your head around that.
It`ll be 2030 until first prototypes start their tests, nevermind actual IOC - as aircraft will become more and more complex, the date between announcement of research and IOC will be widening.
Eldarr just stop... Better people than you have modeled the RCS of this plane and concluded it is very stealthy, unlike the F35 which only has low frontal rcs and only on US versions. Furthermore it carries a much better weapons payload, is dual engine, supercruises, is more manouverable, and has a larger area for radar which has a very significant long-term implication. Not to mention that russian radar will probably catch-up to US at somepoint anyway...
Delete''A senior U.S. industry official agreed with Deptula’s assessment. In terms of its avionics, the PAK-FA is closer to a Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet or F-16E/F Block 60 than an F-22 or F-35. “Some may claim that the PAK-FA is a 5th gen. fighter, but it's more of a 4.5 gen. fighter by U.S. standards,” the industry official said.''
DeleteWe just read that F-18 E/F and upgraded F-16 and 15 already use sensors that are better than what F35 has. Forget F22 ,F22 didn't receive funding to upgrade the electronica and software so its at the state it was a decade ago
About sensor fusion we only know from F35 as the advantage LM is marketing hardest as Stealth is begining to get old, we do not know what T50 will have in that respect.
Do you know how a BVR engagment is done against a potent threat , launch a missile head on with high enough energy then break and follow that engagment at 90° (presenting the hard target for a missle while maintaing stand off range) that is why you now have radars on the sides and movable aesa hads in development
Deptula? you're quoting that guy? he has his nose so far up the F-22's ass that he can't see straight!
Delete''People modeled'' RCS is about as legit argument as people playing those games simulating air/naval combats.
Deletehttp://s8.postimg.org/hyrp9axk5/PAK_FA_Soo_stealthy.jpg
It doesnt even have saw-toothed edges, even Chinese have thought of that for fucks sakes.
Thats just the surface of it.
Dual engine because the current ones blow,they really blow and Izdeliye is at least 4-5 years away.
Besides, the complaint of single-engine is old and doesnt hold any merit,considering how other aircraft such as Gripen do just fine without the second twin in the frame.
Maneuverability , the kind PAK-FA will posses is almost like a third teat - nice to have one, for shits and giggles. Useless in action.
Their radars, historically have been very poor as have their sensors been - this is a fact, every single person who has flown Mig-29 and other Soviet built aircraft have said that.
Sorry folks, Russia is a ghost of its former past, it cant compete with US on a level field anymore.
They make good rockets,engines and subs.
Rest - they blow.
And yes I`ll rather quote Deptula than ever quote you - the guy who believes that 6th gen aircraft development signals F-35 death spiral...whats it, 546th time youve been chanting that mantra at this point?
Israelians that testedd last URSS mig 29 models don't agree with that : they found it dangerous for their enemies !
DeleteI like people that have, I assume, no real intel on the aircraft classified parts that are avionnics and internal sensor fusion and are currently saying that it sucks !
It's too early and inthat domain there is too much Fan service, and too much "bullshit speech because i work for concurrent firms".
Elderer it is certainly vastly better than your speculation as it attempts to mathematically model the effects of radar emissions on such a plane and whilst there is of-course naturally a degree of inacuracy due to the exclusion of classified information pertaining to the materials that comprise the SU50 it nevertheless serves as a good approximation of stealth characteristics.
DeleteAnd as I have strongly implied, it is vastly superior to whatever any of our feelings are regarding these planes. Your attacks on the plane are completely eroneous, it is a very good plane, it has alot of desirable characteristics for a fighter-plane, it has a high 'cruising-speed', it has exceptional manoeuvrability, it has very good stealth characteristics, it is capable of carrying a very flexible array of weaponry internally and externally & it is fairly price competitive.
Furthermore apart from cost and logistics issues, dual engine is very much a desirable thing, particularly in a high-performance fighter, in this case your sugestion that such a very large fighter plane should only have one engine, is a completely proposterous and unrealistic idea.
Fans are already drawing up the 2 seater http://th06.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/f/2014/091/b/d/sukhoi_hal_fgfa_by_bbb4445-d7cp0wb.jpg
ReplyDeleteBoth side by side and tandem versions http://www.militaryparitet.com/editor/assets/new/01/20100215163408.png
http://www.militaryparitet.com/editor/assets/new/01/20100215163408.jpg
http://paralay.com/fgfa/52_01.png
That poster in the OP is fan-art
ReplyDeleteDeath spiral
ReplyDeleteGood enough to make a nose-on AMRAAM firing solution a low probability of success.
ReplyDeleteLooking at the Iranian Model
ReplyDeleteIranian Santa Claus going "ho ho ho.....Merry Al-Christmas, how naughty have you kids been today?"
Does anyone know how valid this projection is, is it tentative or drwan in ink? Thats alot planes India is picking up. good for them. But South Korea? I thought they were already buying super F15s, at quite the pretty penny too. huh.
ReplyDeleteOn a funny note, north korea aint getting squat.