Tuesday, July 06, 2010

Is it time to drop the M1A1 from the Marine Corps?


I've been extremely busy lately.  With that in mind, while I was looking over the latest offering from DefenseTech, a weird thought crossed my mind.  Greg Grant point out that the Marine Operating Concept which just hit the streets has these as main points.

“The process of leveraging emerging technologies should begin with a bottom-up reevaluation of all systems from individual equipment through large principal end-items with a specific focus on making each system smaller, lighter, and more efficient whenever possible.”
Toward that end the Marines will pursue the following objectives:

• With the one exception of the KC-130 aircraft, every item in the Marine inventory must be able to be embarked on an amphib and be employable from ship to shore without the use of a pier.
• Consideration should be given to requiring that all combat vehicles have scalable armor protection capable of being embarked separately from the vehicle.
• Infantry companies must be able to operate independently without combat vehicle support. To further reduce vehicle dependency, the Marines should buy the aerial cargo drone; reduce equipment density; reduce energy demands by emphasizing renewable and alternative energies; and reduce battlefield contractor dependence.
• All units must be self sustainable for 72 hours.
• Reexamine the basic building blocks of the Marine Expeditionary Unit (MEU) to determine whether its current organization accurately reflects the realities of where and how it will be employed.
• Lighten the logistical footprint required to support the aviation combat element (ACE) by buying newer, less maintenance intensive, aircraft. The ACE must also reduce the amounts of fuel and oil it consumes.
• Add Joint Terminal Air Controllers (JTACs) to the lowest echelon possible.

If this is our doctrinal direction then where does the Main Battle Tank fit?  Is now the time for the Marine Corps to divorce itself from perhaps the most "Army of Army" weapons?

Before you go high and to the right think about it.

The M1A1 goes against the concept in every regard...

1.  Heavy logistical tail...
2.  Difficult to transport...
3.  Unable to operate independently or as part of Company sized units of maneuver.

Others can probably easily expand on this short list.  With more accurate artillery.  With Marine Air being able to provide almost 24 hour-all weather support.  With UAVs being able to provide ISR and close air support, then do we really need the shock action of the M1's 120mm main gun?

Tankers will state that the best anti-tank weapon is another tank.  I agree but in these times of limited budgets, a changing doctrine and the focus on expeditionary operations from the sea--can we really justify the Tanks existence in Marine Corps formations?

I don't know but I think that it should be considered.

Note:
Marine Armor is approaching a "shatter-point" soon regardless.  The US Army is due to embark on its M1A3 upgrade program.  The Marine Corps is already facing the choice of Upgrading to maintain commonality, keeping the M1A1 and maintaining an independent supply chain (expensive) or abandoning the tank all together.  The choice of whether heavy armor stays in the Corps will be decided one way or the other real soon.

15 comments :

  1. I've never been a fan of the USMC M-1 just because of the sheer burden it puts on deployed MEUs. There are just 4-5 M-1s in the entire MEU, and they need nearly 8 HEMTT fuel trucks just to keep them going, as the M-1 burns fuel even when standing still.

    I do recognize that the USMC as an assault force really needs a tank - the protection and mobility are equally important to its precision firepower. Urban Iraq proved that once and for all.

    But the new doctrine says (air) mobility is key, and the M-1s supply tail just can't keep up with that.

    Pity the M-8/AGS 105mm mini-tank was cancelled.

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  2. i am wondering, could a variant of the stryker MGS be deployed with marines to provide the fire support the 120 MM gives without the heavy footprint. i know theres still weight and there are armor issues with it, it cant go tank to tank, but maybe a modified version may give fire support on a better platform.

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  3. i wouldn't want it. its less mobile off road than a regular Stryker and a normal Stryker ain't a champ.

    it would require a separate logistics effort...heck if thats the case then keep what we have....at least an M1 is super survivable and able to handle anti-tank/mobile pillbox duties.

    sorry Joe but in my opinion the Stryker is garbage.

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  4. well thats why i was saying is there a way to modify it, i mean maybe putting the 120 mm smooth bore on one of the LAV III, or attaching it to one of the AAVs we have. as the EFV comes online, is there a way to attach the gun to one of the other platforms. i wasnt meaning just transfer strykers from army to marines but essentially take the concept of a large gun on a more mobile platform. should have been more specific, sorry about that.

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  5. nope, don't apologize you're good. i'm just feeling fiesty.

    oh and the Stryker is still trash but the idea of putting a large gun on an AAV or EFV has merit...i mean its been done before the LVTH-6 had a large bore cannon (for an armored vehicle anyway).....i don't know how practical it would be today but of interest is that during this same time period the USMC was operating a (for the time) Heavy Main Battle Tank...the M-103.

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  6. what if the EFV is cancelled, where does it leave the M1

    The question is, what are you going to be fighting with your M1's?

    What is the doctrine behind its use?

    This should drive out requirements and those might still point to an M1 or it might point to something smaller, like a 105mm or even 90mm

    Plenty of lightweight off the shelf turrets and weapons from Oto Melara, CMI (Cokerill), Denel and others that could be mounted on the LAV's or whatever comes after.

    It also raises questions about the need for everything to be landed 'without a pier'

    This puts enormous strains on logistics and drives all sorts of expensive requirements. Have a look at D Day, there were very few amphibious vehicles and no airlift yet they still landed in serious weight in very short order.

    They did this by bringing their piers with them.

    Perhaps it might be an idea to spend more on enabling access using ship to shore logistics rather than having a requirement to do everything with piers.

    Am rambling a bit, sorry about that!

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  7. I meant without piers that is

    Talking about the Mulberry Harbour system Winston Churchill said

    PIERS FOR USE ON BEACHES

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  8. Its probably overkill but how about something like the ISU-122/152 series?
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISU-122
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISU-152

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  9. i totally disagree ThinkDefence...piers are good for the follow-on assault force but not for the assault echelon (Marines)....

    besides we have enough LCACs to continue on with our missions with the force that we currently have....enough LCM's and LCU's too.

    D-Day was a totally different animal from the force of today and is not a good measuring stick. a better view would be the landing on Tarawa or Saipan or Iwo Jima.

    everything arrived on shore without need of piers....that's what we need to get back to even if we keep the M1's.

    as far as putting lighter guns on vehicles...like i said it has merit but then again..why? we tons of javelins and TOWs in the Infantry...we have helo's and Harriers and soon F-35s...we have artillery and HiMars. we are covered against a massed mechanized assault...

    as a matter of fact i think that that would be an easy fight (relatively) for the Marines.

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  10. hey me.

    i just don't like the assault gun...they were fine in their time but today they don't offer enough to be attractive. better an ordinary tank than those throwbacks (in my opinion).

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  11. well my idea was as the EFV comes online we completely refit some of the AAV's with large bore cannons. while they may not be tank on tank engagements i do think a few large bore cannons would be helpful, for taking out well entrenched infantry positions, taking out medium vehicles, it may do well in a tank on tank engagement since the sights allow such long range attacks. i am not saying we need alot of them but a few per battalion would be good.

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  12. Joe, you just outlined the exact reason for the M-1A in US Marine service! In MEU service it is never really about tank-vs-tank, but for mobile organic fire support for when artillery and marine tacair was unavailable.

    As said above, instead of Stryker MGS, using the current to-be-SLEPPED LAV-25 as the base vehicle with a 105mm/120mm cannon could be an interim option (off-the-shelf assault gun conversions are superior to the over-engineerd Stryker MGS imho).

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  13. Marcase: and the good thing about using a system like the retiring AAV's or LAV-25 is they are proven systems and already integrated into the USMC networks, dont have to wonder if they will work. of course modifications will be needed with the gun mount, but still good to have something u know works.

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  14. Stick an off the shelf available turreted 120mm smooth bore mortar on the LAV25 - i.e. the BAe AMS as used by Saudi Arabia on their LAV's by their national guard, not sure its the same LAV variant as used by the Corps though.....
    http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/lav-m.htm (page down about halfway)

    Direct fire support with HE out to 1.2km, indirect fire support with all those precision rounds in development for the US, add some Strix IR guided top attack mortar rounds, or Israeli LAHAT laser guided missiles, oh and its a standard calibre for the Corps already I believe :-)

    Don't forget tanks were not originally meant as anti-tanks weapons, they were infantry support assault weapons.

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  15. so true but the original concept called for a male (cannon armed tanks) and female (machine gun armed tanks) with the female tanks providing infantry support and the male tanks doing shock action type things.

    i followed your link and its cool but why bother with a turret? just stick your mortar in the back like we do now. the turntable can be rotated a and it should be just as easy to load and you're not gaining the wt or the loss of mobility due to another ton or 1/2 ton being added to the top of your vehicle.

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