sikhs have been serving in the british army, since colonal times, as they said in the news report, the tradition of sikhs wearing a turbin?? goes back a long time, since b4 ww1, they have worn there traditional headgear, on parade, never mind "joining the 21st century, if they are prepared to die for queen & country, i will show respect to there?? religion.
this is nothing new, the bearskin cap has a history, going back to 1815, i'm sure sikhs where serving this far back, i can find reference to them serving as far back as 1890, using there turbins??. so no great modern change here, just a decision made long ago gaining a new avenue, plus he looked pretty good in said turbin??
Perfectly acceptable. Surprised it hasn't happened before now. There is a lot of interesting history to the relationship between the British military and Sikhism during the Raj. They are on a par with the Gurkhas. They are a splendid people for whom many have the deepest respect. I wish our northern towns had large populations of Sikhs and not that other backward Asian religion whose name escapes me at the moment.....
Normally, I'd say that this is a bad idea. But we're talking about the Sikhs. The Sikhs have a wonderful martial tradition. Doesn't really seem like a problem - there's Sikhs in the US military who wear turbans (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/24/nyregion/24sikh.html, among others). I gotta say, much as I'm very much into tradition, this is one that I think we can afford to see broken. It's not like it's a woman wearing a tactical abaya, or anything.
The time to complain is when 5ft tall 100lb women gets into the Guards and is let off ceremonial duty or given a chair instead of standing.
Now the interesting thing in that scenario would be head gear. In many services women and men wear a different headdress. So perhaps my 5ft tall guardswoman could get away with not wearing a bearskin.
Always think RM Bands Service females look a bit odd in their pith helmets if they are tiny. Rather like Darth Helmet in Space Balls.
I think USMC women officer's head gear in what here would be 3's is very fetching. Ok! I mean damn hawt......
And I suppose special mention should be of when the RN changed male ratings' caps to match the female ratings' cap when it went from round to elliptical (though still flat and sloped on top). That was at the same time women ratings went into square rig for 1s.
Liberalism and political correctness (cultural Marxism) always eats away a great society a little at a time. We in the west need to fight for our culture not cave to a lower culture. Just been readin American Spartans and it makes the point over and over that one of the Great things Krulak did was teach American history to young Marines.
This isn't about political correctness. This is about allowing a practising member of a religion to join the army of a country for who his people have fought for over 200 years. A people with a proud martial tradition. The Victoria Cross has been awarded to 5 Sikhs. Occasionally exceptions have to be accommodated.
every culture has a martial tradition. whether its a proud one is not for me to determine but being a member of a proud culture that has a proud martial tradition is not enough to allow exceptions.
i have nothing against the Sikhs, what i do have a problem with is this exception. now that you've made this exception, where does it stop? if a person finds out his people were Irish, would you allow them to wear a kilt in this formation instead of trousers? if not why not? you made the exception once to satisfy political correctness, why not in that case?
and that's the problem. you do it once and you keep doing it. and then a uniform is no longer a uniform, you just have a collection of people .... you can't defend the undefensible.
Well I had a read of the ARRSE thread on this Sikh guardsman business. 50/50 split as per for that forum. Somebody did float the idea that whoever push/prompted/suggested the Guards to this individual knew it would cause upset. Some suggested he be found other duties and not allowed to do public ceremonial work. We shall see. Uniformity is a fundamental. But I don't know. We shall see.
While I don't have a problem with this, I find Solomon's point intriguing. It's the classic domino argument the Cold War but I think it's a pretty valid one.
Sol, if you saw the massive differences in dress uniforms in the British army you'd shit a brick. One of the Sgt Majors from my old unit wore a dress kilt, despite the regiment it was from no longer even existing. Plenty of traditions knocking about that allow exceptions to normal rules to preserve the history, why not allow one new one?
Pride and Esprite de corps would make me for one want badly to be accepted as one of the guards so much I would discard my traditional head dress for the Bearskin. It's like having that one Marine in a formation who is wearing a piss cutter while the rest are in barracks caps. It looks unprofessional and it looks un-military. Someone forgot the "Uniformity" in the Uniform. Not a team because the one who considers him/her self above the rest and wears a different uniform shows there are individuals who do not wish to join but to change traditions. Kinda like that Army Beret fad. Will they dress next Like the border guards of India and Pakistan just for the sake of PC?
sikhs have been serving in the british army, since colonal times, as they said in the news report, the tradition of sikhs wearing a turbin?? goes back a long time, since b4 ww1, they have worn there traditional headgear, on parade, never mind "joining the 21st century, if they are prepared to die for queen & country, i will show respect to there?? religion.
ReplyDeletethis is nothing new, the bearskin cap has a history, going back to 1815, i'm sure sikhs where serving this far back, i can find reference to them serving as far back as 1890, using there turbins??. so no great modern change here, just a decision made long ago gaining a new avenue, plus he looked pretty good in said turbin??
Perfectly acceptable. Surprised it hasn't happened before now. There is a lot of interesting history to the relationship between the British military and Sikhism during the Raj. They are on a par with the Gurkhas. They are a splendid people for whom many have the deepest respect. I wish our northern towns had large populations of Sikhs and not that other backward Asian religion whose name escapes me at the moment.....
ReplyDeleteWhat? There are only 25 Sikhs in the whole British Army??? Thats a shocking statistic given the long history they have.
ReplyDeleteAlso Steve, that Other Asian Religion you refer to is not Asian at all but hails from a rather sandy region a bit west of asia
Normally, I'd say that this is a bad idea. But we're talking about the Sikhs. The Sikhs have a wonderful martial tradition. Doesn't really seem like a problem - there's Sikhs in the US military who wear turbans (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/24/nyregion/24sikh.html, among others). I gotta say, much as I'm very much into tradition, this is one that I think we can afford to see broken. It's not like it's a woman wearing a tactical abaya, or anything.
ReplyDelete(Long-time reader, first-time commenter)
The time to complain is when 5ft tall 100lb women gets into the Guards and is let off ceremonial duty or given a chair instead of standing.
DeleteNow the interesting thing in that scenario would be head gear. In many services women and men wear a different headdress. So perhaps my 5ft tall guardswoman could get away with not wearing a bearskin.
Always think RM Bands Service females look a bit odd in their pith helmets if they are tiny. Rather like Darth Helmet in Space Balls.
I think USMC women officer's head gear in what here would be 3's is very fetching. Ok! I mean damn hawt......
And I suppose special mention should be of when the RN changed male ratings' caps to match the female ratings' cap when it went from round to elliptical (though still flat and sloped on top). That was at the same time women ratings went into square rig for 1s.
Arabia is part of Asia.
ReplyDeleteLiberalism and political correctness (cultural Marxism) always eats away a great society a little at a time. We in the west need to fight for our culture not cave to a lower culture. Just been readin American Spartans and it makes the point over and over that one of the Great things Krulak did was teach American history to young Marines.
ReplyDeleteThis isn't about political correctness. This is about allowing a practising member of a religion to join the army of a country for who his people have fought for over 200 years. A people with a proud martial tradition. The Victoria Cross has been awarded to 5 Sikhs. Occasionally exceptions have to be accommodated.
Deleteevery culture has a martial tradition. whether its a proud one is not for me to determine but being a member of a proud culture that has a proud martial tradition is not enough to allow exceptions.
Deletei have nothing against the Sikhs, what i do have a problem with is this exception. now that you've made this exception, where does it stop? if a person finds out his people were Irish, would you allow them to wear a kilt in this formation instead of trousers? if not why not? you made the exception once to satisfy political correctness, why not in that case?
and that's the problem. you do it once and you keep doing it. and then a uniform is no longer a uniform, you just have a collection of people .... you can't defend the undefensible.
Well I had a read of the ARRSE thread on this Sikh guardsman business. 50/50 split as per for that forum. Somebody did float the idea that whoever push/prompted/suggested the Guards to this individual knew it would cause upset. Some suggested he be found other duties and not allowed to do public ceremonial work. We shall see. Uniformity is a fundamental. But I don't know. We shall see.
DeleteWhile I don't have a problem with this, I find Solomon's point intriguing. It's the classic domino argument the Cold War but I think it's a pretty valid one.
DeleteSol, if you saw the massive differences in dress uniforms in the British army you'd shit a brick. One of the Sgt Majors from my old unit wore a dress kilt, despite the regiment it was from no longer even existing. Plenty of traditions knocking about that allow exceptions to normal rules to preserve the history, why not allow one new one?
ReplyDeleteOh yes. He doesn't know the half of it. :)
DeletePride and Esprite de corps would make me for one want badly to be accepted as one of the guards so much I would discard my traditional head dress for the Bearskin.
ReplyDeleteIt's like having that one Marine in a formation who is wearing a piss cutter while the rest are in barracks caps.
It looks unprofessional and it looks un-military.
Someone forgot the "Uniformity" in the Uniform.
Not a team because the one who considers him/her self above the rest and wears a different uniform shows there are individuals who do not wish to join but to change traditions. Kinda like that Army Beret fad.
Will they dress next Like the border guards of India and Pakistan just for the sake of PC?