The above vid shows the "knock on the roof" technique that the IDF has been employing lately.
I'm paraphrasing but it works a little like this. First they attack the target with some type of inert munition that supposedly lets the bad guys know that they're going to get blasted in the next few minutes and then they're attacked with a real bomb or missile.
Are you fucking kidding me?
This is a weird way to conduct warfare. Does the IDF have clear objectives? If you have no clear objectives then you should not be launching missiles. If your objective is "hearts and minds" or some other touchy feely nonsense then you should find some method other than warfare to achieve your goals.
This is how Israel will lose it all. Once the IDF was serious. Now? I'm not so sure.
We have our reasons. One of our objectives is to destroy the dwellings belonging to Hamas commanders, while minimizing civilian casualties. "Hearts and Minds" has nothing to do with it. That's an American concept. We don't expect to change their minds or their hearts. And reducing the civilian casualties is 1) good for our image and 2) an absolute value in and of itself, if possible.
ReplyDeleteif a Hamas commander is living in a structure as a guest then doesn't that make those aiding him also enemies? if Hamas has taken over a family dwelling and is attacked doesn't that make Hamas the guilty party?
Deletethis is just weird Jonathan.
quite honestly i thought the IDF was beyond the politcal correctness disease that is infecting so many western armed forces.
i guess i was wrong.
tactically this is a stupid way of doing things.
I disagree totally. Israel has perpetual war because they have so sanitized war that the Palestinians think it cannot get any worse and so all they have to do is keep the pressure on. Palestinians believe they will win everything in the long run, which look around, the people who hate you still hate you, and the ones who support you still support you. But letting a conflict go on indefinitely rather that just go full alt and end it is not a long term strategy unless you intend to lose.
DeleteWhy is Israel proper more secure? Because the original zionist who fought fought for keeps and pushed the enemies out. The West bank and Gaza Israel has tried to make peace it is a failing strategy.
Israel should listen to the right in your country and start annexing land everytime the Palestinians attack, pushing the Palestinians out of those lands once annexed and making it crystal clear those areas are no longer on the table for final status negotiation. Start with the settlements then from there to boarder consolidation, buffers, etc.... This will show the average Palestinian that there is no hope but acceptance, continued resistance will only end in them being pushed over the boarders into Jordan, Egypt, etc..
well said C-Low.
Deletethe biggest mistake the Israeli's committed was giving back land they captured in previous wars. that taught the Arabs one thing. they can't win on the battlefield but they can win at the negotiating table!
what do we see now? the Palestinians have petitioned the UN to step in and setup a cease fire! once again they launch rockets, the Israelis retaliate and they go running to liberals in the US and Europe to save their sorry asses.
I would also leverage the Hamas Paleo merge to concentrate the land annex on the west bank. The West Bank has much more value historical/defensive than Gaza.
DeletePushing the Palestinians out and annexing their land everytime they attack and then all the land is yours ?
DeleteSeems like a pretty Legitimate Invitaion for the Saudis and Iranians to pursue their Nuclear Ambitions justifiying that with Wailing Palistinians and Israeli Victory Parades. Go on.....annex all of Palestine. Go ahead, kick them out of their own homeland. You Israelis must be familiar with the feeling of getting kicked out of your own homes......right ?.......Lets become land grabbing murdering scumbags and put a smile on your face.
Now that personal bullshit is over....lets talk business. Seriously.
1.) No country till today has found that perfect counter-terrorism/insurgency policy.
2.) If you think you can "Exert" control over the Palestinians without actually having control and boots on the ground....in their very own neighbourhood.......you are asking for trouble.
3.) The only way you can "Exert Control" then is to have the same occupation that you had till the 1990's i think.
4.) I would prefer if this discussion became more about the tactics being used here than another forum for Arab/Muslim Bashing. For you meeting a muslim may be 1 in a 1000 chance but for me...i interact with them daily and they are as patriotic as me in this country (India).
5.) That level of Patriotism doesnt come about by Annexing Land and kicking people out. Israel is soo "Lucky" that most of the enemies it deals with are on the the other side of a border. Try governing a country whose main enemy uses Islam as its main weapon (Pakistan) and targets a country with the second largest Muslim population in the world (India). A country with massive poplulation in poverty and thus more desperate.
And the blog administrator can remove this post if he so wishes, but this had to be said.
Trying to avoid civilian casualties cuts both ways also avoiding bad guy casuaties , another aspect here is that you are using 2 precision guided weapons to do the job wasting at least 50k $ but you can afford to do that as it the US taxpayer who pays for it directly or indirectly trough miltary aid money
ReplyDeletei am really starting to get tired of the civilian vs. combatant debate. bad shit happens all the time. if you're in a war zone its to be expected. you fight wars to win...hopefully quickly but you go all out for victory! this half measure bullshit is really starting to rub me the wrong way.
Deleteif you can't fight to win then don't fight at all.
I understand your disapproval/frustration. Actually, I share it. But you know that any military is the extended arm of the government. Every Israeli government, right or left wing, has been afraid of being isolated by the rest of the world. Every government is afraid of the diplomatic and economic consequences. They're also afraid of losing sources and conduits for arms. These aren't idle fears - they've happened to some extent before, and continue to happen with decisions and motions by various civil bodies around the world to shun Israel. (God only knows why they side with the Arabs.) So Israel bends over backwards to find ways to show that we aren't just bloodthirsty killers. The real military solution to the Gaza problem is simple - turn it into a parking lot. But the Israeli public, right and left, has little to no stomach for such things. Remember British Colonel Richard Kemp's comments from previous Israeli operations? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WssrKJ3Iqcw
ReplyDeleteAnd if you look at all of Israel's wars, you will find that every time they've pulled up a bit short due to pressure exerted by the US and other foreign governments and factors.
Israel, just like the United States will always be feared, envied and hated. but never loved. the sooner both our populations and politicians understand that the sooner we'll be able to properly deal with our enemies...enemies that would not think twice about slitting every throat in both our countries without second thought.
DeleteIsolation leads to decay and disintegration.
ReplyDeleteIsrael needs as many allies and trading partners as possible, so we're not talking about love and kumbaya either.
There is more to warfare than just putting steel on targets. Just as there is a kinetic level of warfare, there is a moral level and ignoring either is perilous for any nation but especially for Israel.
think about what you're saying.
Deletethere is more to warfare than putting steel on targets? have you not wondered why we seem to be having so many conflicts?
i contend its because we're all trying to civilize an uncivilized act. war is about killing the enemy. full stop! nothing else. killing the enemy, his ability to produce weapons and support the effort etc...
if Israel conducted warfare in the way that they should we would see HAMAS broken and scattered. what will they get instead? a rerun of this entire affair in another year. all because they refuse to eradicate this threat once and for all.
Problem is that Israeli politicians need Hamas so they will do only so much ass kicking no to break Hamas totaly ,there are worse groups waiting in the shadows to step into Hamas shoes including ISIS afillates.
DeleteKilling is incidental to warfare, it is not the goal or purpose of it. The goal is to defeat the enemy and force him to do our bidding.
Deletehave you not wondered why we seem to be having no success killing our way to victory? Maybe because there is more to war than just killing.
Look at where groups like ISIS, Hezbollah, AQ, etc. draw their succor and strength? There are 1.5 billion Muslims in the world. If just one percent of Muslims were dedicated to sending money, recruits, to such groups, there would be 15,000,000 potential people providing direct support. If 10% of them were Jihadis, there'd be 1.5 million.
This is nothing more than a PR move. IDF has always been hammered by the international press for that seeing disregard to conventional human rights laws and such so they have come with this new technique to essential try to win the social media war. Not that I or anyone in their right minds agrees with the tactic but you have to admit that the message of "look we give them warning before blowing up their house" is better than the usual parade of palestians wailing on CNN about dead kids. And it goes beyond just dropping a dud on the roof first (I am actually interested to know what munition they use for this) they even go to the extent of phone calling the target house and informing the residents to evacuate!
ReplyDeleteISIS is slicing throats on TV. civilians are being killed in Ukraine. Syria is out of control. yet suddenly this side show with Israel bombing the Palestinians is the most important thing happening in our world?
Deletei think not. this is just a play by the UN to seem like they're needed. its a cocktail party issue so the US president is seeking to get involved...but it doesn't solve the real problem.
fuck social media. they're going to be on to the next "hot thing" or social issue in a few minutes. bomb these savages back to the stone age and be done with it.
oh and is this the 8th or 9th intifada that they've launched?
This is ineffective: the leftists turn around and demonize this technique all the same.
ReplyDeleteexactly! i find it interesting the comparison between the killing of the 3 israeli boys and the palestinian child. the leftist went crazy about the palestinian child but ignored the israelis beiing brutally murdered.
DeleteLeftist talking, so you can guess my opinion on Israel.
DeleteIt isn't ineffective(together with the "call before bombing"), at least a minimum it is affecting my opinion(but being educated i need to confirm everything with scientific stats demonstrating less civilian casualties) , obviously everything is clouded by killing of the 4 boys (there is no difference between an Israeli and a Palestinian child/teenager) just after negotiations from one side and from the other for the primitive concept of "Eye for an Eye".
Any kind of sympathy towards Israel has been lost after the death of Rabin.
An interesting article i read some time ago (it isn't leftists) http://www.economist.com/news/middle-east-and-africa/21569427-arab-israelis-are-too-disheartened-take-forthcoming-election
God taught Israel how to fight along time ago, look at the Old Testimate, and it wasn't how they are doing it now. The parking lot comment by an earlier poster is actually the best description of how it was done. If you really want to win, don't leave anyone behind who can pick up a sword.
ReplyDelete"If you really want to win, don't leave anyone behind who can pick up a sword."
DeleteJustifying Genocide, are we Beowulf75 ?
Justifying Genocide and a systematic land grab and expulsion "Scheme" to the one set of people who know most about Genocides and land grabs ?
no, just justifying the survival of a country against enemies that will stop at nothing to destroy it.
Deletedon't tell me you're one of those guys that would watch his wife being raped and instead of killing the bastard doing it would hand him lube and talk about how we should understand where he's coming from.
sometimes you run across animals...and people...that need to be put down for the good of all.
well, I pity you for bringing in a sentence about anyone's wife gettig raped and lubes etc. in a conversation thats supposed to be about IDF tactics.
DeleteNeed I remind you to "NOT" bring our families into the equation......from one civilized person to another, Solomon.
And now speaking like a person who has more than enough experience in a place like Kashmir and the rest of India....having seen both the good side and bad side of not just Islam but Hinduism and even my own religion, let me ask you this...........When was the last time "Genocide" worked ?
Why is it that even when the entirety of the US general population has such a limited exposure to Islam in their day to day functioning do you "Hate" these people soo much.
Your and Israels "Hate" for Islam teaches other countries to do the same. Other countries which have a lot more interaction with Islam than you do. Take for instance a comment by my fellow countryman "Samar" below this comment about Israel. Why ?......when was the last time a Palestinian did something hurtfull and truly awfull against India ? Or for that matter when was the last time an Israeli did something truely awfull and bad against the Muslims of India ?
When was the last time a Palestinian (Not Islam, but a palestinian) did something bad, diabolical againt USA that you want them burned and slaughtered ?
Solomon, I said in the post a couple of days back when this whole fiasco started-
What is the ultimate aim of the IDF ?....Systematic destruction of HAMAS or mindless violence ?
The day you want to talk about the Systematic destruction of a truly awfull terrorist organization(Hamas).....we can talk, but encourage any talk about systematicall wiping off a population and.......
you forget that this is the internet. i assume that you live in another country and we've never discussed personal relations. by that i mean i don't know if you're straight or gay, single-married-dating or celebite, in short i know nothing about you. so the example of a man watching his wife being raped and not doing anything about was just that. a gross example to make a point.
DeleteIsrael is under constant attack and some expect them to do nothing but ask the Palestinians for some lube so that they can kill them better.
i don't believe in that.
i believe that a nation has a right to defend itself. additionally i'm a Christian and according to my belief system, Israel is to be protected by those of the faith.
but let me close with this. you talk about systematic destruction of HAMAS or mindless violence. when you say Hamas, you can replace the word with mindless violence because they're one and the same.
why you refuse to see that is beyond me. we simply disagree. personally all this is doing is encouraging me to go out and buy a TAVOR when i get enough pennies saved.
SUPPORT ISRAELI BUSINESS!
Point taken about the "Internet". Sometimes i do blow my top up.
DeleteBut,
You still havnt answered me when was the last time a Palestinian did something bad to the USA ?
You also havnt answered me when the was the last time "Genocide" worked ?
I think an organization like the Hamas cannot be rooted out with mindless violence. It has to be targeted violence. We have our own Hizb-ul-Mujahedeen and Lashkar-e-toiba and JKLF terrorist organizations who were a pain in the ass for us as well. The usual Scroched earth tactics.....confiscating livestock, salt/naptha in agricultural fields, mass detentions, torture/killings etc.
But believe me, that territory is a lot more safer and less of a headache now that we are using police forces rather than armed forces in populated areas and they have been sensitized now to relate more with the population.
Native/indegenous people indilging in terrorist/ant-India activities are at an all time low. Voter turn out is huge. Indian and Foreign tourists are welcome and go there in huge numbers. Infrastructure projects are in full swing.
But offcourse, India intends to administer and rule there rather than make it a giant wasteland. Israel should learn. Rather than destroying them, administer them, rule them. Make money out of them like any Jewish businessman would.
You dont have to "sell me" on Israeli weapons. Just ensure that at this moment, when you can actually make peace and lasting peace with Iran....another country with Tremendous potential....you dont end up throwing the chance of a century just to please some orthodox jewish hawk who wants war......war without a goal, war without an end, war without specific objectives.
the last time genocide was tried is the last time it worked. that would be the Killing Fields in cambodia. the enemies of the state were unable to retaliate and all they really got were a few show trials in the Hague.
Deletehas it ever been attempted before that? i'm not quite sure. everyone will point to the Germans against the Jews but that was not possible due to the fact that the Jewish people had already dispersed to the four corners of the world.
before that you can point to homo sapiens killing off the Neanderthal.
i don't know if you can actually point to the Indian experience in comparison to what the israelis are going through. additonally HAMAS has declared itself an enemy of the US, cheered when we were attacked and is a noted terrorist group by our law enforcement/military.
last but not least. how is terrorism a police matter when you have combat swimmers, rockets being fired, uavs being flown etc? terrorism is clearly an issue for the military. i don't like it but its obvious to me now.
Terrorism is a Police matter because at the end of the day a terrorist and terrorist sympathiser are Civilians. They may be your own countries civilians or they may be the combatants of another country. In case they are your own civilians, the Law and Legal System of your country is applicable to them just as it is applicable to any citizen of that country. Hence Police with the legal power to arrest and charge people. Not Army.
DeleteIn case they are comming over from another country, that is the time and the only time the Army must be used. Against external Aggresors.
In case terrorists use combat swimmers and rocket launchers.....thats what Police SWAT is for. In Kashmir, the Police Units handle all the "Inhabited/Populated areas" whereass the Army is deployed on the borders as well as certain Strategic areas where they can easily rush to help the J&K Police as a last resort. The Indian Army nowadays does not make arrests. The Poilce does. Any Counter Insurgency operation/encounter operation being planned in the Populated areas is done by the Police with an army advisors on standby. This is a deliberate way of telling the local people (Who populate the local police) that this is your problem.....sort it out. The Central Govt. will help (Last resort) but this shit is yours to handle.
You are right, Indian Kashmir and Palestine cannot be equated or compared. One side is being ruled and governed with the hope of a profitable future, the other side is being decimated every now and then.
About HAMAS, yes...I support any clear doctrine or plan to destroy them. I have said that repeatedly. But you must distinguish between HAMAS supporter and a Palestinian so that your own nations military has an easier time completing whatever objective that has been given to them. Otherwise I can kill 500 people and then label them all HAMAS. Would than make me a "Patriot" or Waffen SS ?
By the way Solomon, and to any Jewish visitors here......I am not Anti-USA, not Anti- Israel. The same way I am not Anti- Islamic. I am just against people who wish violence for violence sake. Which is what got me Riled up about Beowulf75's and some more comments here.
DeleteHey Sing, you ask whwn was it that the Palestinians did something against America. You forget that they were dancing in the streets and on top of the roofs of their houses with joy watching on TV the Twin Towers of the World Trade Center come down. Or a few other instances since?
DeleteThey hate America. Because they belong to a society that does not really understand true democracy. Look at ALL arab societies. There are muslim countries tha have true democracy, but no ARAB ones. They abhor women, homosexuals, other religions and other civilisations - all of them. America symbolises freedom, democracy, equality - all not existent in their societies.
One of the reasons they also hate Israel, because we are like America.
Okay, I admit this is a tangent - but Singh has displayed quite a bit of bigotry and bias here, and I'm going to call him on it. First my own bias up front: I am an IDF veteran, having served from Aug. '80 till Feb. '89. I have dual American/Israeli citizenships. I am a believing and practicing Jew.
DeleteNow to my points regarding Singh's comments above:
1. Genocide. Words have meaning, including this one. Your inflammatory used of the term suits propaganda; but not the truth. Genocide means to systematically and deliberately destroy a people or other group. Israel has never had any such plan or aspiration, and abhors the very notion. All Israelis hate the idea, whether right or left-wingers. Not just because it has been tried on the Jews; but because it is abhorrent in and of itself. Let's be blunt: the IDF possesses the means to kill hundreds of thousands or more of the inhabitants of Gaza. We've never done such a mass slaughter, and never attempted to. The very use of the word 'genocide' is a huge lie. Ironically, it is the Arabs who have many times promised to wipe out the entire State of Israel (and sometimes Jews outside it, as well); yet no one seems to object to those actual calls for genocide. Maybe you should do a little historical reading. An education might improve your correct and truthful use of vocabulary.
2. You implied that Israel is turning someplace into a "giant wasteland". That would be funny if it weren't such a lie. In addition to developing its own resources, Israel runs joint projects with Arab participants to teach them how to develop their land and water resources. Mostly this is done with participants from Jordan and the PA; but the possibility had always been offered to a broader group of countries who refuse. Israel exports that knowledge to other countries in Africa and elsewhere, as well. Gaza had thriving farms and businesses, with a very large export market. When all the Jews were forcibly removed from Gaza, they left behind all those farms intact. The Arabs who took over those properties rioted and destroyed all the resources that had been left for them. Who turned Gaza into a wasteland?
BTW, just what exactly did you mean by "make money out of them like any Jewish businessman would."? Do you have a Der Sturmer caricature to go with that? Maybe a picture of Shylock? Though I am actually quite proud of all the successful Israeli businesses competing on the international scene.
3. Then there's my personal favorite: "just to please some orthodox jewish hawk who wants war." Wow. Is warmongering a teaching of traditional Judaism, in your opinion? Is that borne out by the many centuries of recorded Jewish teachings? For that matter, do you realize that some of Israel's greatest 'hawks' were not self-identified as "orthodox Jewish"? People like Ben Gurion, Eshkol, Rabin, Sharon, or Zeevi (to name a few) were hawks at times that they thought required that approach to defend the state and its citizens. Funny how one of the greatest 'hawks', Mr. Begin, is also the man who signed Israel's first international peace treaty. Let's face it: you know nothing about orthodox Jews and Judaism. You know nothing about Israeli political and military hawks. You've displayed a pretty apparent bigotry that taints all the opinions you express here. But I was touched and amused by your later claim that you're not Anti-Israel. (Of course, maybe you're just anti-Jewish.) All that is missing is for you to protest that some of your best friends are Jews.
@Mordechai Y. Scher-
DeleteCan you not follow a logical sequence or do I have to teach that to you ?
"Genocide"...the word used by me trying to shame a sentence used at the starting of this commet thread. The one where- " If you really want to win, don't leave anyone behind who can pick up a sword."
So you think that this sentence is not Inflammatory but my counter comment to shame is is Inflammatory ?
Off course I am a bigot. As is my country. Dont you see us buying weapons from Israel and still voting Pro-Palestine in the UN ? Is that Bigorty or just Diplomacy ?
Of all the words/sentences you could have taken offence to, you centre on the one that calls on not killing every Palestinian you can get your hands on............... " If you really want to win, don't leave anyone behind who can pick up a sword."...........but you centre on the one person who is trying to counter "That Kind of Thinking".
Before you go on calling me bigot and biased and that I dont know Israeli history(of course i dont understand the finer details of it)......take some time to look up what Indian History is......What Sikh history is. You Israelis arent the only ones with Problems you know......neither are you the "Only Ones" facing "destruction from Arab/Muslim countries.
About those Orthodox Warmongers.......admit it, there are people like that in every religion, region, country and government. Even in my own country.
"Giant Wasteland".......well, go ahead and focus on another term without knowing the root of it. How many time in this Blog have I called for Israel to administer the "Palestinian Territories" like you have done before so that yoou actually "Exert Control" where it matters the most.
"make money out of them like any Jewish businessman would."? If you say that you do not want to make the Palestinian Territories a Giant Wasteland and actualy end up governing them with a decent govt. structure......wont you make them more profitable and in the end make Money. Or is relating Superior Business skills to Jewish people so Outlandish so as to be considered Racist ?
Anti-Jewish ?.....Really ?....Are you kidding me ?.....The one person who differs here and puts up a counter argument and you call me Anti-Jewish ?.....is that how debates are conducted in your country ?
Have you skimped over all the times when i have called for "Systematic and Targeted Destruction of HAMAS ".......as opposed to reckless/mindless violence that actually feeds fuel to HAMAS ? Are you deliberatly nit-picking points from all that I have written and missing the wood from the trees ?
ttmedical.....if you think dancing on the rooftops is legal evidence proving ones guilt to doing something bad.......go ahead....Nuke Palestine.
DeleteBut be mindfull of which nationality most of the hijackers belonged to and the ultimate nationality of Osama Bin Laden.........go ahead....Nuke Saudi Arabia as well. Go and tell/write to your local congressman.......Lets NUKE SAUDI ARABIA. For all their miss-treatment of women, their bias agaisnt Jews, their support of terror......Lets NUKE EM ALL. If you really want to win, don't leave anyone behind who can pick up a sword.
There you go, now I am in complete agreement with all here and compliant with all the other NUKE EM ALL crowd here that have in the past posted here.
DeleteAm I a Pro-Jewish Good Boy now ?
I consider urban happy unicorn PGM strikes as using a BLU-109 kitted to a JDAM. Unlike its Mk84 brother, it manages buildings and common concrete well (forged steel pointy tip shell with less explosive). With the right smart-fuse settings it will burrow a few feet into the ground and go off. That is usually those more vertical craters you see (assuming IDF isn't doing some other kind of home-grown solution.).
ReplyDelete“Ever hear of a country called Israel? …Israel is a tiny country surrounded by much larger countries dedicated to its eventual total destruction. …they stay alive by being a bunch of tough little bastards who make the other guys pay dearly every time they do anything against Israel. Some in the wider world constantly wail and moan about the endless cycle of violence and reprisal. But since the alternative is non-existence, the Israelis seem determined to keep at it. They have a lot of grit and iron. I’m a big fan of them.” http://www.newsrealblog.com/2011/01/30/pro-israel-heroes-come-to-dc-comics-1/
ReplyDeleteI wish to tell you guys two pieces of information on military equipment.
ReplyDeleteOne: the Iron Dome anti-rocket system has proven itself to be more effective that even its designers hoped for. It has shot down a little over 90%(!!!) of the rockets it fired at to intercept. Those that were calculated to come down on populated centers.
It is considered here in Israel a STRATEGIC weapon system, as it has prevented serious injuries and physical damage to infrastructure.
Second: The Active Antitank missile Protective system on the Merkava model 4 tank near the Gaza border had a Kornet missile fired at it and the crew only knew about it after the system shot the missile out of the air. This is now the third instance of successful interception for the Trophy APS
The IDF faces numerous challenges, a big one, is reliance on foreign support.
ReplyDeleteThat support is contingent on a low body count.
Israel can do whatever it wants, as long as it doesnt kill anyone, no matter how justified it would be to do so.
Hamas, along with Hezbollah, Fatah (and the PLO, are they still around?) is a fraud.
Their leaderships are far more interested in their own wealth and power than they are waging war on Israel.
Which gives us the current situation.
The leaderships of the various Palestinians need to talk (and act) tough about Israel, to justify their positions as leaders of the war effort, but not so tough, as to make Israel kill them.
Israel cannot kill them out of hand, but it can take away their wealth and power, directly, by destroying their homes and the possessions within, or indirectly, by destroying the economies they loot.
Hezbollah are a prime example of this, who have been virtually silent since 2006.
But I may be biased, since thats the approach I generally suggest the UK should take, toppling ctators bad, training them to behave good